Episode 5: Featuring Dr. Brennan Pursell

In this episode, Fr. Jim welcomes DeSales University professor and 2014 alum, Dr. Brennan Pursell. Dr. Brennan Pursell, professor of business and director of the Center for Data Analytics and Applied AI at DeSales University, teaches courses in data analytics, artificial intelligence (AI), and management in the undergraduate and graduate programs.

His book, Outsmarting AI: Power, Profit, and Leadership in the Age of Machines (Rowman and Littlefield, 2020), destroys widespread myths about artificial intelligence, clarifies the technology's capabilities and limitations across economic sectors, and shows how to implement it profitably, ethically, and in accordance with the law.

Outside of academia, Brennan has worked as a management consultant for firms large and small, from multi-national corporations to niche technology firms and start-ups. He recently participated in a project to educate and prepare the state courts of the USA to prepare and defend themselves against digital mis- and disinformation, cyber-attacks, and AI deepfakes.

Filmed in the DeSales Virtual Production Studio.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Tales from Detales. I'm Father Jim Greenfield, president here at the Sales University. And I'm absolutely delighted to bring you this fifth version of this podcast for the month of May. And our guest today is someone you are going to really enjoy getting to know. And by the time we are finished our conversation, you're going to want to sign up for a course so he can be your professor. So, Brennan Purcell, welcome to Sales from the Sale.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Now, even though I know you quite well, I'm going to make sure I get all this down and then we're going to have a nice conversation. You're a professor of business. Yes. You are the director of the Center for Data Analytics and Applied AI in the Waterbury Raleigh School of Business. You live in Allentown, Pennsylvania. I do. You've been here for 25 years. You believe it. So your name has been on some faculty door for 25 years.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I don't I don't understand those numbers. I don't know where time went. Time is a joke on all of us. Well, time's moving on, but from the looks of you, you don't age, so I'm jealous.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Um you you got your MBA. You're an alum. That's how you made it to this podcast. Yeah. You're an alum of DeSales University 2015. And but prior to that, you have two other degrees. You have a degree from Harvard.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Are you gonna make me say it? Are we dropping the H-bomb now? Yes. We're dropping the H bomb. I have two degrees from Harvard.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Two degrees from Harvard in history.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

History.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Uh a master's and PhD. And a master's and PhD.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

And did you also go to Stanford? I have a degree from Stanford. That's that was a bachelor's. But all that in history. But that was a long time ago. I got the bachelor's in the 80s. In the 80s. And people watching the show would be like, the 80s? Yes. Someone would be alive that long? And then my PhD and my master's in the 90s. And the world is so different now. It's so different. So yeah, my DeSales MBA was absolutely crucial to my personal, professional, and academic journey. I just, when I love it. When the great financial crisis 2007, 8-9. Here I am. I'm I'm a de sales history teacher. I'm teaching all periods and epics, especially European history, but across 2,000 years, Plato to NATO, that type of thing. It was awesome. I was always learning something. But the the financial crisis hits.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Can we just stop Plato to NATO?

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

That's that's a great image. I just want to say that.

unknown 2:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Good. All right. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

And then and then the crisis, I'm like, what is going on? Barney Frank is up there talking about securitization. What is that? What's a CDO, a collateralized debt obligation? I didn't know what the heck was going on. And um, so it was it's a benefit at the sales. Anyone, anyone on the faculty of staff can like take a course in some. So I decided I'd like to take an MBA foundations, I think it was in economics. Okay. And that was so interesting. Who was the professor at the I don't remember the name, but it was it was an adjunct professor who had retired. I think he'd had a full-time position somewhere else. And at the time we had campus somewhere else, and so it was it was part of the different campus, but videoed in. It was so interesting, just also learning about wealth creation across the banks. And I thought, well, I like that. I think I want to take another one. And and then, you know, um, it was talking to my MBA colleagues, so why don't you do the whole degree? Oh, could I? And I got hooked and I couldn't stop.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

That's fantastic. And we have benefited all the more because you are now professor of business. Yes. And I think since I've been here to sales, not as a student, but as uh you know president, you're the only professor that's gone from one basically school to another.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

You were in the School of Liberal Arts for Humanities, yeah. Now in professor of business, which I think is fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

And can I defend that? I feel the need to defend that, especially if your viewers this is a no judgment zone. Oh, but you can defend the code. The world is low with judgment. And I want to I want to justify, I want to explain it. It's not such a big leap as you think. As a lot of people think, they say, you went from history to AI. That's like that's almost Play-Doh to NATO. I mean, that's a huge jump. How is that possible? It's like, look, in history, you look at evidence. You look at evidence trying to answer questions about the past. In business and in analytics and data analytics, you look at evidence. That's what data is, it's records. And you try to use that to answer questions, not only about what happened and what kind of performance is this, where did the problem come from, but you do another step which you don't do in history. In history, you don't say, or you rarely say. Well, based on what we've seen in the past, what's going to happen in the future? We do that in psychology. Well, we do that in a lot of fields. In history, you're kind of not supposed to do that. I mean, people do it all the time based on historical perspective. But in business, of course, and with data analytics, what is the prediction or in the term in prescriptive analytics, what should we do next? And so, yeah, finishing up the MBA, that really got me more into um using software on electronic media. For my dissertation, I had done a lot of reading manuscripts and dusty old archives and things like that, all very word-based. This was more quantitative and it used a lot more software. And um I just got hooked on it and I couldn't stop. Well, I'm gonna share this.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Um, this is one of your books that you published. Yes. I have a few complimentary copies in my office that I give out to people, so thank you. But before you publish this, and we're gonna talk about this one, I actually knew of you because someone gave me your book, Benedict of Bavaria, I believe was the title. Right, which was so well oh, but Father O'Connor, Bernie O'Connor gave it to me, gave it to the whole board. Oh, that's right. And then um I ran into you at a board meeting. I wanted you to autograph it. So that was my introduction to Brennan Purcell. Um, so you've come a long way from Benedict to power profit leadership in the age of machines. Yeah, I mean, I mean and four other books in between?

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Uh yeah, like a total of six. Like a total of six? I mean, I think so. But I think I mean one I just edited. But anyway, um, yeah, so but that's kind of who I am. I get like, come on, Benedict XVI shows up, we're in 2005, he's a new pope. My wife is from Bavaria, the port the area of Germany where he grew up, and the initial books about him were awful. They just they ignored who he is and his context, where he came from. And it it the the first books about him just covered the journalistic history of his kind of career, and it was very manichaean. It's like first the argument, first he was liberal, then he became conservative, and he's mean. And that's just garbage. So I don't know. I I felt the need to write that book about him so people could understand where he came from and just to point out the consistencies in his theology, regardless of what people think of him now.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Um can you tell everyone just in case what manichaeism is? Oh, sorry, manichaeism.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

It's like light versus dark, good versus evil, liberal versus conservative, divide the universe into two parts and set them at opposition. That's kind of silly. But with this book, without smarting.ai, so yeah, um, I did the MBA mostly in 2012, 13, and 14. And I was done with that. And then immediately after that, I started helping out a friend with his document management business. He used documentary uh management software, and and was he running his own company or he was running his own company here in Bethlehem. I helped him out with that. That was that was really cool to help him out with that. But it was in in seeing software work on parts of documents that I started to get interested in AI because AI takes, especially if you're typing words into chat spot chatbot, it breaks those things up into word parts. AI software, you could argue to some extent, is a kind of derivation of document management software. But that's kind of pushing it. But yeah, so I I AI, I I got really interested in AI. And some friends of mine from Harvard said, hey, we want to start up this um cybersecurity consultancy in Alexandria. Could you help us out just part-time? And and and and one of the guys, my co-author there, Josh Walker, said, Brent, you really need to pay attention to this AI stuff. So I started studying AI from like 2016, 2017, 2018. And by 2019, 2020, I'm like, I need to write a book about this, because this is really powerful stuff that's kind of underneath the radar, and it could change a lot of things. So, yeah, to tie the book about Benedict with this one, I get excited and curious about things, and then I research them, and then I want to write it up and teach about them. And de Sales has let me do this. So many other schools would say, no way, you will teach history there forever. You can never ever depart from your position right there. Whereas DeSales, I was able to research and learn more and develop new competencies and then teach them. So I'm grateful for that.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

And you you are a grateful person, and I I really value and love that about you. Um, that's one of our university core values, along with gentleness, humility, hospitality, and wisdom. That's right. And when we, you know, you kind of gave me some things about you so that I would, you know, have some content for this interview. How have those university values helped you in your publishing, in your quest to understand applied AI? Um, how does it make you Brennan Purcell?

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Great question. Those those five values are super important. I can't check them off and put them into boxes and say I've always complied with them and they belong in my back pocket, and that's all fine and dandy. No, they're they're more aspirational than anything else. Because to write and to teach, you have to and to make arguments very often you have to kind of set humility aside and you have to come up with some compelling things, and then in academic circles where you have sometimes very active debates, you can't you're you should be kind of genteel. I wasn't trained to be genteel, but uh genteel versus gentle. Um, but no, humility isn't is really important, I think, for academic honesty. We don't know what's going to happen, and we should be very honest about what we can do and what we can't do. I've never developed an AI tool. I'm not a software designer. I analyze and I'm very interested in applied AI, how we can use these technologies. But but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

And gentlemen, if I may, yes, you I asked you to give a little brief presentation at an open house where we have potential students and their parents. It was a packed conference center, and you spoke about it. That just generated so much interest among those students and the parents because this is this is life now.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

It's real, yeah. It's real. So that's where wisdom ties into it. And and hospitality is just it's part of the core of Desales. When I left Harvard, one one of the reasons when I came, what struck me first and immediately when I came here to visit, everyone held the door for people. I just I thought, oh my god, for real. And I could and then in a little class I taught, I turned around and started chatting with some students, and they greeted me with a smile, were totally willing to speak. Um, you know, where where I had come from, this the suicide attempt rate was classified information. You weren't supposed to speak about it. And I I was in one of the residential colleges, and in addition to a couple of suicide attempts, there was a horrific murder suicide, and just the way these things were handled, I thought, what where am I? What am I I don't want to work at a place like this? So it was it was very important to me to come to an institution, an educational institution, where you where people need to be good to people. Above all the faculty with the students. We've got to be welcoming and um we have to handle them wisely and really care for their education and and to be an example to them as in terms of professionalism and and humility. Yeah, and all the values, they're they're incredibly important.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

I'm happy to hear that. And you know, that is that's tragic what's happening in you know the mental health arena of young people today, especially in higher education. And you know, we could have a whole conversation just about that. We could indeed. But just to say that it it's it's so sad, and that here at DeSales, we have a great wellness center for all kinds of mental health maladies, if you will. Um, so again, I just want to say that. But Harvard, hopefully, one person that may have held the door for you was a 1971 graduate, Father George Salzman. Father Salzman always held the door. And he's an obly to St. Francis de Sales. Yes. He kind of is pivotal for your presence here, isn't he? Oh, absolutely. Okay. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Let us know better. For my life. Okay. For your life, okay. Yeah, because Father George Saltzman um introduced me to a friend of his, Peter Harpetner, who, when he heard that I was needed to do dissertation research in Germany, said, please, please let me help set you up and get you around. And and I was hanging out with Peter and and we were we were just driving somewhere and there was some music playing, and I sang along a little bit. He said, Oh, you're good. You're really good. We should we should have a music fest at my house in Austria. And and he he found me an accompanist, and I end up marrying her. Yeah. Yeah, so Father Salzman was hugely important there. This was in the the the the Alps or something? This we first, my my wife Imgard and I, we we met first in the Alps. But also just just for me personally. So here I am at De Saint uh at uh at Harvard, and it's incredibly stressful, it's kind of an awful place. And I I wasn't really raised with any religious orientation at all. And I find myself, through the study of history, I would go to St. Paul's Catholic Church and just sit there in silence. And Father Saltzman came up today and introduced himself and asked me what I was doing there, and we started talking and we had many conversations about Catholicism. And through the study of history and and just the experience of prayer, I decided to become a Catholic. Well, and that was you were received into the church at St. Paul's. That was actually in Germany, but the process began in St. Paul's. Okay. So that's all from the 90s. But yeah, oh yeah, uh Father Saltzman's a very important person.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

So, and I'm glad, so he was kind of the matchmaker almost.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

So you meet you've I'll never forget this. So it's towards the end of my PhD, and uh he and I have been talking about something. I said, you know, I think maybe I won't go into academia because it's just it's so brutal and it's it's hard to find jobs. And I think I'll just I'll just go into consulting. And I was actually interviewing with a couple of companies. Okay, and and he he called me up and said, Brennan, hamburger! Brennan, you want a burger? Sure. So I met him at the burger joint, I forgot the name of it, and he said, What do you think of the 49th parallel or whatever parallel we're near? I was up in the Boston. He said, he named the parallel, and he started telling me about Allentown College of St. Francis de Sales, which was in the process of changing his name to DeSales University, and he knew through his board membership that uh a historian was leaving and that they would start a search. Right. They said, just uh call this person and just maybe something will come of it. Twenty-five years later, here I am.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

That is fantastic, and I'm gonna make sure George listens to this podcast. But you know, let's talk about your wife. Yes, and let's talk about your kids and all that. Please let us know.

unknown 15:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

So my wife, Imgar Purcell, she's a pianist, and she's been teaching part-time at Lehigh since we got here 25 years ago, and she has her own private studio, and and she's my darling. She's my my süße. Uh, and what's that word mean? That means my sweetheart. Your sweetheart, okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Um and you speak both German and English at home, correct? Yes, we do. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

German and English at home. And yeah, we met in Germany when I was over there on my dissertation travels, and we decided not to separate. And and she has came over with me, and we had a couple of years together in the Boston area and then moved down here. Yeah. When we when we came here, we looked down and said, okay, what do you think? And she said, I said, you know, maybe I should do the consulting thing. She's like, Brendan, you did the PhD in history. You are an educator. That's who you are. Let's let's give this a try first. Don't go running off and doing things. I tend to get excited by things, and then I go and run off in various ways. But she's a wise woman. Well, she keeps me rooted. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Well, interestingly, you really can't. And yes, she is wise. Yes, she is wise. And and I've met her, I don't know her too well. And one of these days you have to have me over your home for dinner. Oh, I would I would love that.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Oh, she likes you. Oh, good. Okay. She doesn't like everybody. And uh I'm telling you, a lot of Germans, a lot of Germans will be very clear about things. Wow, okay. 50% of what they have no problem saying negative things. None at all. I think I think a lot of people in America struggle with saying no. Oh, that's true. Or saying goodbye. Okay. Or just you're right. I think a lot of people just feel bad sometimes. But in German culture, it's like there are things you agree with and there's things you disagree with. And there's no problem just saying no.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Well, one of my sisters-in-law, she wasn't born in Germany, but her parents were, so very, very German culture. And um, so I have a little bit of that in my family. Uh-huh. Uh, but she uh and her my my brother, um, they didn't she didn't raise the kid speaking German or anything like that. But um tell you know, one of the things you share with me previous was like when we asked you about like how will people remember Brennan, like your legacy, the time here. And you said your legacy will live on in your children. Yeah, no one will remember me here. Well, tell me more about that because I think they will.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

I will. You know, look, Jim, we're all well, I'll be out of here before you. Maybe well we don't know that, do we? There's only a few years between us. We don't know what's gonna happen. We don't know what's going to happen. And look, all of us were just passing. And amen. I mean, I remember my grandparents lovingly. Uh my own children do not know anything about them. Wow. G give it a generation, you are gone for good. Right? So, in terms of like leaving a mark on institution, that's that's not on a high priority for me. No, and and actually I was I was I was thinking about that the other day. Um, there are some people when they retire, they like to have a big shindig and they like to be in the center of attention and get celebrated, and they won't hear the speeches and get the No, I'm not gonna do that. When when my time comes, I will turn my letter of resignation, and I don't want any parties or anything. And when I'm and and then when I'm gone, I'm gone. I'm done. I'm not gonna come back and haunt the halls and say, How are you doing? And are you changing my program and you're here because of me? And then no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Well, that's that's very humble of you, but um, let's not talk about when you leave. Let's talk about a typical day for Dr. Brennan Purcell. What do you do on a typical day here?

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Typical day. Uh come in on the early side. So we still have our youngest is at home, our youngest Dominic. Oh yeah. Before we get to that, you tell us about your children, and then we'll uh three children, uh Benedict, Elena, and Dominic. And Benedict is finishing up graduate school and Elena's college, and Dominic is in high school, and uh they're the lights of my life. I love it. I love it. So typical day, um, you know, Dominic goes off to high school and and I come in here and I teach and I do, you know, I I do my things. Uh I teach and I prep. A lot of the job is teaching and prepping, but there's a lot of admin to do, and there's people to help out, and then there's, and my job particularly, there's I have to keep up on on this AI stuff, this this information technological revolution that we're living through right now. And it's dizzying and it's overwhelming. And I felt terrible uh imposter syndrome for years until some of the leading lights that I follow, people like Andrew Eng, flat out said, Oh, I feel imposter syndrome every day, every day. And these these are like people who developed the algorithms and and kind of led this technological change that I because this is a global phenomenon. There are people working on it all over the place, and the sun never sets on it, and and uh papers are published and immediately uh uh distributed everywhere through through the glories of the internet and and the pace at which the new tools are being rolled out and the new features and and then the amount of money that's gone just washing into it in the last two, three years. It it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. I didn't predict all of it. Okay. I did predict this deserves attention because this this is very powerful stuff.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

You certainly did that here, and I like how you typify AI as dizzying because I feel that way. You know, anthropic, you know, chat GPT, like all these things every day in the inbox. But you've been such a help for me and and most of our colleagues here, because you have been, you know, the leader, along with other um, you know, faculty and staff, to do AI teach-in days where we tell everyone, you know, from 12 to 1, we're gonna have food available, bring your laptop, bring your phone, whatever, and we're just gonna learn it. And they've been so powerful. We now have one of our goals in one of the pillars of our strategic plan. So, and we're gonna try to get, you know, how do we um have a student learning outcome in every course for a major? So you you've been really helpful and you've really advised me well.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

But the one thing you said about AI at some point, I share so often because it was so profound, you said there are two things AI cannot do. AI cannot love and AI cannot think. No. And I think that's a powerful um statement. And I think people need to know that because they're the two things we can do.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Right? Right. Yes. Right. We we can also tell the truth and know when we're telling the truth and know when we're lying. Some people I think break and they don't even know when they're lying anymore, but let's set them aside. Yeah, so um AI cannot love, it's just a machine. Unfortunately, we're seeing tendencies and different companies that are trying to get people to form an effective relationship with AI, which I think is profoundly duplicitous. And um think, okay, so uh yeah, we think and it doesn't. It calculates. However, let me couch this because when I wrote this book, since writing this book, I'd say like 80% of it is probably obsolete, but the core ideas I think are still in place. I have yet to see the core understanding of AI change. So it calculates, we think. However, it all it learns. It doesn't learn the way we do, but it is machine learning. It's machine learning that powers it. And it is trained on masses of data, effectively the whole of the internet. It's crazy. And boy, can it do some amazing things, but it is just math that does this, not the kind of cognition that we do. And then adding on the third one about truth versus falsehood, it doesn't know when it's accurate and it delivers all of its outputs with the same confidence, and that's for us to verify and check on. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

And at the sales, we say like the true, the good, the beautiful. Yes. These are the beautiful, this this is all the iterations of God, of divinity.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Yes, and these are profoundly Catholic ideas. Yes. What makes a life worth living? No, no, it's not machines and it's not money, but the true, the good, and the beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

And speaking of, let's go from the left brain to your right brain with your music.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Sure. So yeah. What are you doing here? Music is what brought my wife and me together, actually. And I play viola, and um, I didn't play much in the early years here. I mean, having three children and trying to get tenure and doing whatever. And then and then I had a serious health issue where my hands just wouldn't work for about 10 years in there. And then since going into medical remission, uh I've gotten out my viola and and I've tried to play the first and first, it was just hopeless. But but um well, it's wonderful making music with other people. And right when I was trying to get my playing up again, um this little group called the the the Lehigh Valley Chamber Orchestra was founded. I they popped up online. I thought, oh my god, I wonder if I can get in. And they they let me in, and I was their principal violist for a few years, and then I I turned, I I asked my my colleague Nancy Pote, who lives right here in Coopersburg, okay, would you please take this over? You have more experience than I do. But anyway, I love playing with them, and it's making beautiful sounds with people in order to move hearts. That's that's why you do it.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

That that's beautiful. Um we need to wind down um because we're we had a time already. Dude, we just got started.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

I know we just got started, but it's like what bullet points did we not go over? What did you want to cover? No, we we went every everything. We did the essentials.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

But what I what I want to ask you as we kind of conclude our conversation, um, what do you see the next year? Let's not go too far, the next year to be like in this um climate, this this this world we live in, which is so fractious, so fragmented. Um, how can AI be a force for good? And what's your prognosis around that?

SPEAKER_00 26:07

AI is a force for good. It can really enable. This is just one isolated example. I don't have a big, beautiful meta answer for you. I just don't, because what the world has a lot of problems, and and just wrapping my head around that would take too it would take a lot. Uh AI is a boon to the young entrepreneur. There is so much of computer work, working with files, working with calculations, arranging text that the young entrepreneur wanting to start his or her business really wants to not have to spend that much time on in order to win customers and go out there and provide better services. AI can really help with that. Um it I think there will there should be a very large productivity boost. Um, it's we it's changing the way we relate to information. That's completely inevitable. Some of it will be good in that sense, but look, let's not we'll not turn the thing into some all-powerful technology. It's not, it's just a tool. You can plug it.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Well, it's a disruptor. I mean, it's disrupted higher ed, healthcare, everything. So we need to stay buoyed to our ethics and to our, you know, our core values. Yeah. Uh the motto here is, you know, be who you are and be that well. You do that so well. But could I ask you as my final question, uh, what does that Silesian dictum mean for you as Brennan Purcell?

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Be who you are and be that well. Um the opposite, not the opposite. Don't try to be someone that you aren't. That one. Just be who you are and be content with that body and soul, the way God made you. But be that well, I'm not perfect. Nobody's perfect. We're loaded with flaws, and every single day gives us the opportunity to be who we are better, to address those flaws. We look to values to orient us, and then we're presented with historical realities and personal challenges and all kinds of things. And there's a certain number of ways we can go to take that stress and inflict it on others and to make sure that others are suffering as much as I, right? There are ways to do that, to share the misery, but we say no to those. And so we say, no, we're gonna go the way of our five values and other good values, and we're gonna try being who we are to make things a little bit better for others around us. That's what that means to me.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Amen. And Dr. Brendan Purcell, I am delighted every day to be your colleague and work alongside you. Same chem.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

It's a real honor. I hope you stay a very long time.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

I want that on camera. I want it rolling. I want you to stay a very long time.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

I will introduce you to the board chair, Kathleen Nolan, classic.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

I will chat her up and all of them whenever you want to. I'm on call. Thank you. Welcome.